Interview Louise Kershaw
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Amanda: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome everyone to the find your North star series for millennials seeking life's clarity on your life's direction, helping you get clear about what you want and moving past limitations, keeping you stuck so that you can start to create a space for you to start really defining the life you love.

I'm Amanda, your host, and we have a great guest today that I'm excited to speak with. Her name is Louise, and, um, she's a career clarity and transition coach for millennials who are no longer happy in their current job situation, um, so maybe you resonate with that. , she has a background in psychology and almost 15 years working in the HR and talent management space, so she really leverages her experiences in that and her expertise to support millennials.

on their journey towards career fulfillment. So I'm really excited to dive in and we're diving really into navigating career crossroads in your own career journey and the straightforward strategies that will help you get unstuck at work. [00:01:00] Um, but I want to kick things off and I just want to, um, probably give like an opportunity to explain why Millennials in the first place.

So welcome. 

Louise: Hi, Amanda. Thank you for having me. Um, yes, it's a great question. Um, I think the honest answer is, you know, I find my, I found myself in that sort of situation several years back. And I really wanted to help the group of people that I just felt a lot of natural empathy with and resonated with how they might be feeling in that situation.

Um, I'm an elder millennial. I'm towards that end of the spectrum and my clients are typically, um, you know, maybe, maybe five to 10 years younger, but in that kind of, in that kind of range. And so, um, yeah, it's the group that I care a lot about and I want to see them thrive. And I feel like I'm in the position to be able to help them do that.

Amanda: Yeah, thanks for sharing that you kind of resonate with those feelings. It can be hard to navigate that. Um, and just knowing what that [00:02:00] next step is. So I'm curious, like in your own coaching practice, what do you see as like a reoccurring issue or things that your clients struggle with? 

Louise: Yeah. So I see millennials coming to a crossroads in their careers.

And you know, so many people have sort of fallen into their careers. They studied something at uni, they weren't sure what they wanted to do. They sort of fell into their line of work. And so it wasn't necessarily strategic or planned. And so what's happening now is 10 years or so have gone by and they're looking around and they're thinking, wait, is this it?

Do I even like this? Is this what I want to do forever? Usually that's a no. And so then it's a question of, well, what else would I do? And that's when they can feel stuck and quite overwhelmed. And so to that, I would say, you know, it's okay if you haven't gotten this figured out yet. Um, there's many millennials are still trying to figure out what lights them up.

You haven't done anything wrong, if that's how you're feeling. And [00:03:00] you have so much time to explore alternative paths. You know, people are shifting into new careers well into their 60s. So you are not beholden to the career that you're in now in your 30s and even your 40s. 

So the other thing I'm seeing quite frequently is people coming to me with burnout, and I The reason I think this is happening is when we were being raised, we didn't have the very, what is now a very common discussion around boundaries and self care even wasn't really a thing. It was about trying hard and doing well, and many of us were also raised in homes that rewarded high achievement, your value and therefore your self worth got directly tied up in getting good grades, doing well.

It was all external achievement and validation. So the way that's manifesting now in the workplace, if we have a bunch of high achieving, right, people pleasing adults with perfectionistic tendencies in their 30s. who are [00:04:00] working themselves into the ground, because to not do so is really quite threatening.

It's a challenge to their self image, to how they've always worked, to how they've been socialized, to how they've gotten validation and a sense of acceptance before. So it's just important to realize and recognize that this is really common amongst millennials and to treat yourself with compassion. You know, if you're going through that, it takes some time to, uh, avoid burnout or to recover from it.

It's about reckoning with how you show up, your behavior and detangling your sense of self worth from the job and then setting down clear boundaries about how you'll work so you don't fall into this trap again. And we all have a script and an internal narrative underpinning all this about who you are and where your work comes from.

So it's about interrogating that a bit and rewriting our narrative so that it will serve you instead. .......

for those of us who are dealing with that perfectionism, [00:05:00] because it's such a pattern that we've been practicing, for all of our lives. Do you just have a practical way that maybe we can start to reverse engineer that or not have that take hold of so many decisions that we try to make?

Louise: Yeah, I mean, it's so common. Um, it's something that is quite deep rooted in a lot of us, you know, wanting to do everything perfectly. Um, so. I think part of it is realizing just how self defeating it is. There's no joy or humanity in perfectionism. You know, it's so unnatural. Um, would anyone want to be friends with the perfection, a perfect person even?

No, it's, it's almost boring, right? Like there's no base for nuance or complexity or humanity in perfectionism. So at first I think I'd recognize, is this really something you actually want? You know, so much learning comes from Leaning into your failures and learning from them [00:06:00] and realizing that failure is just data acquisition All you're doing is learning how to do things differently next time.

So if you're striving for perfectionism, you kind of You've kind of gotten the wrong end of the stick. You're kind of chasing the wrong goal. It should be leaning into the experience of life and taking from it, you know, the wins and the losses and saying, right, what do I want to do next time? And that's so much more.

There's so much more grace and compassion we can have for each other when we try, we fail, we do it again than just simply trying to be perfect all the time, which is just so rigid and unhelpful, I think. So it's just getting curious about where your motivation comes from and realizing that it's a self defeating goal.

It's boring. It's not natural. 

Amanda: And let's 

Louise: try and give ourselves some compassion. 

Amanda: For sure. Yeah, I think they're saying that because it ties back to what you're saying about taking action and enjoying the journey, right? So it's like, I don't think at the end of the life, you're [00:07:00] going to look about like, Oh, I was so perfect.

And everything I did, you know, you're going to really reflect on your failures is something a lot of people like take with them and like everything they learned through that. 

And so with that, we might, some of us might be like, um, have jaw popped in the past. That was my experience. I was jaw popping like every two years. Um, and I was never seeing like a specific opportunity through, but there can be costs and benefits to that.

So can you speak to what you refer to as the job popping cycle of doom and describe what that is? And maybe some things we should think about before transitioning. 

Louise: Yeah, so the cycle follows the similar process. It starts with a niggle of dissatisfaction. And this is what you can push to the back of your mind quite easily, but you know it's there.

And that niggle, that whisper of doubt about do I even really like this, that starts to get louder. It becomes a scream. So now you know you're really not happy and you want to [00:08:00] leave. And that turns into longing. You know, you can get trapped in that stage of longing for years, um, because you can daydream, it's comfortable to stay where you are, even though you hate it, it's familiar and it's very seductive.

So then you finally decide, no, enough is enough, quit your job. But you don't know what else to do. So you move into something that's very similar, kind of adjacent to what you're doing now. It's still in your wheelhouse. Perhaps it's in a new company or a different industry. The novelty of that makes it feel different and interesting for a little while.

But six months in, the same feelings start to emerge. That niggle of doubt starts to creep in again. And so you're back to square one. So it's a pattern that's quite easy to fall into. And to break that cycle, it's just really important to get clear on what you're actually seeking, what you're actually looking for.

It's not, what job should I do? It's reverse engineering it a bit and saying, how do I want to feel? [00:09:00] What do I want to learn? What do I want my day to day to look like? What are some of my non negotiables with that? And what drives me? You know, what are my values? What are my transferable skills and then it's considering roles that will suit you rather than just hopping to the next job that's available because it's, it matches your previous experiences.

And that's how to break that cycle. 

Amanda: For sure. That was my experience. Specifically, I realized after like several job hops, I wanted to do a complete transition in that. A complete industry shift. And that happened multiple times before I figured out what I was like created to do. But I think what you're saying also like stepping outside of your comfort zone and reverse engineering, some of those things, like you're not satisfied in life can really attain, like.

Um, and so I think it's really important just to take the time to get clear on what you want. What would be, that first step then and like that discovery process, for them to get more [00:10:00] clear, just to take that time instead of just maybe going to the next shiny object syndrome that they, they say.

Louise: Yeah, you know, I would focus if I were them on what gives you energy. And there's a really simple exercise you can do, actually, to really reflect on that. If you think about your working week, and you just make a list of like Monday to Friday, and start to make a note at the end of each day of what are the activities I've done today that either gave me energy or drained my energy.

So you have two columns and start to see what the patterns are. If by the end of the week, you've got so many things that have been draining your energy, but not much that's been giving it to you. You can start to get that sense of where that misalignment is and where you do get energy, get really curious and interrogating that.

What is it about those things that are giving you energy? It might be the people you've been working with whilst you were doing that activity. It might be the environment. It might be the challenge of it. It might be, the [00:11:00] inherent stretch of, of the, of the development opportunity of it. It could be that it's familiar and so you enjoy the comfort of it.

So get really curious about what about it has given you energy. And that's a really helpful starting point to get clear on, yeah, what would give you a sense of satisfaction going forward. 

Amanda: Right, that's good advice. Um, yeah, I think that curiosity and I had to do a lot of experimentation and I think it's just about like taking action and that really helps to with your clarity if like you're still not gaining that clarity.

I'm doing some of the self discovery work. Um, so when, what do you see, I guess, outside of like the job hopping that we just discussed, do you see other common mistakes when people are just feeling really unhappy in the careers and they and they just don't know how to move forward. Like, is there a common pitfall that people fall into that's not serving them?

Louise: Yes. I'd say they're making three core mistakes. One is they're waiting to feel ready. And this is [00:12:00] such a mistake because the truth is you won't ever feel ready. Okay, that feeling is not forthcoming. Because our brains are prediction machines. They hate instability, uncertainty, risk. So whenever you contemplate doing something different, where your brain doesn't know how it's going to work out, it's going to send you these warning signals, these alarms, and make you dwell on the what ifs of it all.

So we wait to feel ready, but the trick is you don't need to feel ready. You know, confidence comes from doing the thing. People think it's a prerequisite for starting, but actually no, it's something that will result from taking action. It's not something you need in order to take action. All you need to take action is some courage and a simple baby step to get started.

And the second mistake is they're letting themselves get distracted. By comparisons to others and also by the arrival fallacy. So comparisons are really hard, right? In our society, like one of the core ways we measure how well [00:13:00] we're doing is comparing ourselves to our peer group, our colleagues, our friends.

And I hear this a lot. People say, yeah, my friends are going for VP roles now, or they're managing a team of 10 and I'm just an individual contributor and I need a promotion as well, but the real issue is they're not happy on the path that they're on. So chasing these promotions won't actually. Hell, the mistake they're making is they're letting someone else's version of success provide the yardstick that they're measuring their own career against.

And then the arrival fallacy is where we think once I achieve this thing, then I'll be happy. We do it in everything, right? Like once I get married, then I'll be happy. Once I buy a house, then I'll be happy, but that's not actually how humans work. All that happens when you achieve a milestone is we shift the goalposts.

We start to crave the next milestone. Scientists call it homeostasis, like revert back to the previous baseline level of your happiness or unhappiness. So when it comes to setting these big [00:14:00] goals in your career, just remind yourself of that arrival fallacy. We're always designed to be chasing something new.

So if you're pushing yourself in a job that you don't even like in the first place to achieve a level of like status or that won't give you lasting. Happiness. It's a bit of a red herring and the mistake you're making is you're being driven by this arbitrary Milestone rather than whether or not you're actually enjoying the journey. 

And so the third mistake that people are making is they're falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy.

And so this just means that we think when we've got all these qualifications, you know, the degrees, the years of experience that we've had, it would fundamentally be a waste if we were to throw it all out and start again. And I get it, right? I was in HR for almost 15 years, have a master's in organizational psychology.

I worked really hard to get charted status of the HR. Um, you know, body to CIPD [00:15:00] got qualified in all these psychometrics and certifications, and it felt really frightening to imagine doing something different. There's a reason why that's a distortion. There's a reason why it's a mistake because actually everything you've done will set you up for success in your new venture.

You're taking it all with you. Your perspective, your unique value is from the experiences that you've had. So you're never starting from scratch. You're always starting from experience and it's never a waste. What you've done has gotten you to this point, but don't make the mistake of centering your past over your future. 

Amanda: When you said about enjoying the journey, I really love that and I'm a big advocate of enjoying the journey and I think everything you're mentioning can apply to everything in our life. It doesn't just have to be career. It can be any area that you're just feeling stuck in.

You can use these same exact steps to pull you out of that. And I know that you talked about, go about that self discovery of what work you might want [00:16:00] to be doing, like paying attention to your energy levels. Usually the things that are aligned with our values are the things that are going to give us energy, so those are all correlated.

Um, so, for those who aren't familiar, is there like a first step or a process that you speak to your clients, maybe from a career focus as well, about how they can find out what their values are? Um, so they can be more aligned with that in their day to day. Cause career is such a big part of our daily life.

So, 

Louise: yeah. I mean, there's, there's two exercises that I do with clients who are inside my career clarity success program. One of them is an end of life. reflection. So I know it sounds a bit morbid, but it's actually really powerful. And I say to clients, I imagine you are at the end of your life and you're looking back upon your life and you're recounting to a dear friend, everything that you've experienced, that's given your life this meaning, and it's been a life well lived.[00:17:00] 

So you're happy, you're content with your life. What would be the things that you would hope would punctuate your story? What are the common themes and the common threads that would come up? That would punctuate it. And then we go into that. So people might say travel, I'd say, okay, what does that give you and what sits at the heart of travel?

Well, it's variety to new experiences, it's, it's novelty or it's discovery or it's adventure. There's something always that sits underneath their answers. So that's a helpful way to really ask yourself, what is it that I'm looking for here in my life? And how can I live in alignment with that thing in my career?

And the other exercise is. What frustrates you? So I'll ask, can you think of a time where you've gotten really angry about something that's happened at work? And people inevitably can. And when we say, okay, what was it specifically about that experience that made you so upset? Because what's actually happening is a core value of theirs is [00:18:00] being, um, violated.

And so they might say it was just so unfair. I say, okay, so, Justice is a value for you. Yes. And yeah, it's the procedural justice. It's the injustice. I felt that was what was making me angry. And so instead of looking at it from that positive lens, we come at it from the opposite lens and say, well, what's the negative side of this?

What's the flip side, the dark side of your value that might be being violated? And that's a helpful way of exposing it as well. 

Amanda: Right. Yeah, I think that's really helpful because some of us might not know what we want or what we desire or just having a hard time what makes us tick. So maybe looking on the other spectrum of that, like being what really agitates us, thank you for giving like both sides of the spectrum for that and I love that you said asking why for that end of life analysis like what like why is it that you want those things. So I think there can be really depth and discovery with that. So thank you for sharing. Um, I know that you have a freebie for the [00:19:00] audience.

Can you explain a little bit about what that is? 

Louise: Yes, it's a simple, um, you know, downloadable PDF. It's called, what to do if you hate your job. And it just outlines for you a simple four step framework of what to consider, to help you move out of this, this difficult crossroads, this feeling of stuckness and start to get clarity on what your next steps might be.

So, um, so very welcome to, to download that. 

Amanda: Very nice. I think that's a great way just to know that we're not alone in this, that there is. Actions that we can start taking today. So I encourage everyone to go ahead and download that and the link will be below this chat so you can take advantage of that.

Um, before we say goodbye, Louise, I know I'm putting on the spot, but is there one simpler habit or an action step that you advise the audience to start with like today after this interview? 

Louise: I think I would say to people, you don't need to have a master plan figured out in order to start to [00:20:00] take action, to pull yourself out of your thought loop of indecision and rumination and inaction.

To get out of stuck, just do something small. So one small action gets momentum towards your change. So it might be. downloading the freebie. It might be starting a book on career change. You know, I recommend, uh, U Turn or Squiggly Careers or Working Identity. These are great books on career change. When you've decided that enough is enough and what you're doing is no longer serving you, And what you want to do instead, you don't need to have the whole thing figured out in order to start.

Think about what is the first baby step you can take to get closer to your goal. So start there and build. 

Amanda: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It can be very, very simple. Like just ordering the book or just downloading the PDF. You don't even have to read it, but maybe tomorrow you read it. So thank you for sharing that and just like inspiring us to continue that [00:21:00] momentum and that, um, There is hope for us if we're feeling stuck in a career because I know it can feel so daunting to, start the process of, uh, transitioning out of that.

So a big thank you today for sharing your insights and to our viewers, be sure to grab that freebie and stayed tuned in for more of our series, um, coming up, um, after this. So special out to you, Louise, for being such an amazing guest and thank you for being with us today. 

Louise: Thank you so much.